I’m fascinated by contradictions in the bible. Because of that I’ve decided to create a sub-section on this blog titled Bible Contradictions. The first is below, which addresses the question “Does god lie?” The answer is unclear.
There are many more contradictions regarding whether or not god lies. Those verses saying he can’t lie are found at Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, 2 Samuel 7:28, Psalm 119:160, and Hebrews 6:18.
Verses claiming that god can or does lie are found at 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22, Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, and Ezekiel 14:9.
Pingback: Bible Contradictions #30: Can god do anything? | The Atheist Papers
Any religious text always lies as it has all the same frailties, false analogies, and false hopes that are always a byproduct of an unthinking mind.
Christians always present there assumption as evidence that god was the beginning and end of everything, and have always committed themselves to that utter failure. And why you suppose? …
Well, if any divinities were ever there “in the beginning” then they have to abide by the laws within the universe of their procreation.
And so, every divinity had a cause for the effect of its own existence. Which brings the question:
If god had a beginning, then what was the cause? Another deity?
Since we know about the total imperfections that all religious texts contains within them, as nothing but philosophical opinion alone, as no gods have ever shown themselves to anyone, and the very fact that governments have always used religion to for the control of all within any state by spying on its own, or by usual means to force others in following the tyrannical religion of the state, then you can only regard it as a work of men. Men, whom wanted absolute control over their kingdoms, and if you dared to hold any opposition towards them, then you were exterminated on the spot and replaced.
This is why I do not ever think in terms of whom. Only “what?”
You are not discussing the Bible (which is a book written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, not in English or French or Chinese). You are talking about a translation of the Bible. A contradiction in a translation is not a contradiction in the Bible. The straw man fallacy is obvious. Besides, why don’t you choose a Bible translation without this contradiction? For example: 2 Thessalonians 2:11: “That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie” (NWT)?
I would rather not cherry pick the bible. I’m well aware of the different translations. Unfortunately we only have what is in front of us to work with. If you can find the original text, I’d love to see it. But remember, the bible is presented to us as is. I’m merely repeating what’s in this presentation, which does not meet the standards of straw man (a straw man would be me claiming a verse in the bible that doesn’t exist or to bastardize the bible grossly. A straw man is not the repeating of verses).
Translation is certainly tricky. If its too literal it can mislead, but if there is too much interpretation it can also mislead. Be very wary of relying on a single recent translation – and most of all – find out who paid for the copy you hold in your hand and what their agenda was!! Some recent American translations deliberately change the meaning to suit their political/theological thinking, such as changing the single Hebrew word for ‘Commandment’ that is repeated many many times in Exodus to ‘law’ or ‘direction’ except for the ‘Ten Commandments’. This makes it appear to the casual reader that there are only ten commandments in all, instead of hundreds. (Interesting to note that Catholics don’t have the same 10 commandments as the Protestants, by the way)
I would suggest using four translations. A Catholic one, a Jewish one, an Evangelist one and the King James (probably the updated version, but I like the language of the original)
I agree, using multiple translations is a good thing, or do like I, and hop on over to Bible hub.com You can see parallel translations side by side, but ultimately getting into the Greek and the Hebrew to see the meanings of the words themselves and determining if the translation you are looking at is a good one. I primarily use the KJV as my text, however even then I know it had agendas behind it. The trinitarian doctrine of say 1 John 5:7, the word Easter instead of Passover, ghost instead of spirit even though in the same breadth the word is like penoma or something close to that, which means spirit, ghost I believe is like phantasm.
I guess that’s why I like the KJV, I know what to look for 😉 But in short, this isn’t a translation issue, is a misunderstanding issue. That is all.
That is the Jehovah Witness Bible. They change scripture to support their thinking.
Hey Rayan. I am beginning a project, and am going to use your material if that’s OK. As a new Bible believer, (I’d say not Christian as this main stream religion clearly has these scriptures messed up) I am learning as quickly as I can, and am finding your “contradictions” for good learning and am going to use them to show other believers how there isn’t contradictions. Well I have only started with this first one, but it goes as such.
Can God Lie?
Well I would say since hes God and is outside his creation he can do whatever he wants, and is probably capable of anything, least that would be my understanding. What does the Bible say?
No: “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began” Titus 1:2
Yes: “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” 2 Thessalonians 2:11
With the listed above two statements, one is clear “God can not lie”. Other verses such as Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, 2 Samuel 7:28, Psalm 119:160, and Hebrews 6:18, all make it very clear that God can not or will not lie.
However the suggested yes he can, it says he will send a great delusion so that people will believe a lie. Does it actually say he is capable of a lie or that he is uttering a lie? No, it says he will send a strong delusion. Merriam Webster lists a delusion as
: a belief that is not true : a false idea
: a false idea or belief that is caused by mental illness
A modern day example of this could be the theory of evolution, or even panspermia. Ancient Aliens seems like a great delusion. Now that’s not God lying, but that’s God sending man a situation that he would rather believe in the delusion than to believe the truth that is the Bible.
Other bible verses that have been listed to state God can or has lied are 1 Kings 22:23, 2 Chronicles 18:22, Jeremiah 4:10, Jeremiah 20:7, and Ezekiel 14:9.
Well 1 Kings 22:23 & 2 Chronicles 18:22 are the exact same event. Like the gospels, they are multiple perspectives of the same event. In this event a deceiving spirit comes before the LORD and volunteers to lie, so its not God lying. 2 Chronicles 18:20-22 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? 21And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. 22Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Jeremiah 4:10 and 20:7 are both Jeremiah speaking poetically and not actually uttering a lie.
Jeremiah 4:10 “Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.”
He proclaims God hath deceived, because he said there would be peace, now there isn’t. Well they didn’t follow his commandments did they? Contingency 🙂 If anything this is an example of God keeping his word, or telling the truth. Its a time when the Babylonians were about to take over Jerusalem. If they had kept the commandments, they would have been fine.
Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
Again Jeremiah saying hes been deceived is not necessarily God directly lying, its just Jeremiah saying he underestimated God.
Ezeakiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
In this case, again it is a what if scenario and not a contradiction or a lie. What God was saying is if a prophet spoke a lie, then God himself would be a liar, and thus he would reach his hand out and destroy that prophet for making God a liar as the prophet is to speak for God.
So the end result is this. Can God lie? Again he is God and is outside, above, not bound by his creation so ya am sure he can. Is there a contradiction in the Bible that says he can’t and yet says he does or has? Nope. According to the Bible God can not or will not lie and nothing suggests that he has.
Hi David, please feel free to use my content for any reason you see fit. Thanks for asking!
Cool beans, the finished product I put together is this,
Working on #2 at the moment. Hope you take a look at this presentation. They are always under 5 minutes. As I continue to work on them if you ever care to watch more, they can be found on my youtube channel I recently created,
Anyway, thanks for being cool with me using your material. Two birds with one stone, allowing me better study in the scriptures to see if these things be true, as well, a platform to explain misunderstandings.
There is no doubt that God lies in the bible. These are not mis-translations or dubious interpretations. They are plain and clear.
The first of God’s lies is in Chapter 2 of Genesis. He tells Adam he will die on the day he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge. But this is a lie. Adam eats the fruit and not only doesn’t die that day, but lives on for almost a thousand years.
Genesis 2:17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Genesis 5:5 “So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died”.
As I said above, I agree these are not mis-translations, but they are bad interpretations. As I always try to tell believers, eisegesis is bad, and yet many believers and un-believers commit horrible acts of eisegesis. I’ll give you an example.
You say God’s lie is clearly (not even somewhat but without a shroud of doubt) shown in Genesis 2 about telling Adam that if he eats of the forbidden fruit he shall surely die. In fact the verse goes on to further say in that day, so it is expected that Adam would surely die, that day. Yet we know he lived for another 930 years and then he died. So what gives?
Well Genesis 2:25 shows us that they were naked (this is literal no clothes, but naked) yet they were not ashamed. Now some might say this is an act of eisegesis on my part, but without writing a short book, I suggest to you that before the fall, Adam and Eve, were so connected to God by the spirit, they literately glowed, and there for, knew not they were naked, they were walking light bulbs. (Reference Exodus 34:29-35 & Matthew 17)
If you read Genesis 2:7, we get a description of how we are made, and or what we are. God formed man of the dirt of the ground ( I see this to mean the atoms of this physical existence) and he berthed the breath of life into his nostrils (this is the spirit) and man became a living soul (in the New Testament the word is psyche, it means out mind, our conciseness, free will)
It would seem to me that, when being connected to God, or even in his presence, as the father of spirits, he kicks our spirit into overdrive and hence we glow. So what God was saying when he told Adam in the day you eat of that fruit that I have commanded you not to, you will have sinned (go against Gods rule) and thus you shall surely die. We take this as a psychical death, yet obviously he didn’t psychically die, so I suggest to you, what is being said is obviously it was a spiritual death. Being or spirit is our conscience, our intuition, it is suppose to be the way we commune with God, being born into this fallen world, mankind is in a in essence spiritually dead state. This is what Christianity is all about, the rebirth of the spirit, to walk in newness of life, the spirit reborn.
Now I like to use science to help support my claims. Ever hear of biophoton emission ( I believe it is called), or making DNA glow? Check that stuff out, and it may articulate better what I am trying to describe better then my text :P. But in short, we do, and we can glow. The death was not a psychical one, but a spiritual one. There for, Genesis 2 is not God lying, but a misunderstanding on mans part.
When I read the Bible I read with a few things in mind, #1 there can not be any contradictions. If there looks like there is one, chances are it is a misunderstanding, and can be explained from other text compared. #2 Read the Bible in its most literal form. It was written literal, not allegorical, and in the places it is allegorical, it will explain/interpret itself. Hey John, you know those freaky beasts you just saw, ya here’s what they mean. I have been slacking on putting together my Bible Contradictions explained series, as I got side tracked on other projects but I will be getting back on the horse soon enough. If you haven’t yet watched my powtoon presentation above, check it out. You may disagree, but if you do, I would like to know why and how. Always up for a good debate, so long as neither side has rabbis 😉 Debate is healthy, fighting is not. Argument teaches, squabbling is useless. Hope to hear back from ya man. Take it easy.
I take your point about me not showing a shred of doubt. There is always room for doubt!
The point I was making was that people have overlaid and interwoven meaning into the text of a story, placing their own interpretations into the Bible – and I am really not sure the text is capable of supporting the weight of those elaborate interpretations.
My ‘God told a lie’ example, is merely pointing out that you don’t have to read very far before you find problems with the text.
Adam is told by God that he will die the day he eats a piece of fruit. But, when he eats the fruit, he doesn’t die. You explain it away as saying it was “obviously” not a literal death. Why Obviously? You have to stretch the story quite substantially to reach your conclusion, and bring into your explanation a diversion about glowing DNA (taking in ‘essence’, ‘rebirth’ and ‘spirit’ along the way).
Maybe I’m stupid, but I simply do not follow your logic.
A more likely interpretation is that God said what he said to stop Adam from eating the fruit.
Why? The bible tells us why – “for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods”
God doesn’t want Adam to eat the fruit and become like God (actually, he doesn’t want him to be like the ‘gods’, but that’s another story!)
So he tells Adam a lie, exactly like many a parent has told their child. “if you don’t come here at once, then I’m leaving you behind” “If the wind changes your face will stick like that” “if you sit too close to the TV it will ruin your eyes”.
The authors of the bible put those words into god’s mouth because it struck a chord with them as the way they expected their god to speak (as it strikes a chord with me thousands of years later) the powerful god is acting the role of parent, giving an exaggerated warning to an innocent and weak child).
But from a simple reading of the text it is clear that what God said was not true.
Your interpretation is different because you start from the position that God would never lie, therefore this could not have been a lie, therefore Adam must have died that day, but since he lived on for years, some other mysterious thing that isn’t mentioned in the text must have happened. He must have ‘died’, not a real death but a metaphorical, allegorical death.
An interpretation not supported by the text.
I think you know this because you very clearly identified the source of the problem. You said “When I read the Bible I read with a few things in mind, #1 there can not be any contradictions”
And this is the heart of the matter. If you knowingly close your mind and go into reading a book with blinkers on, deliberately ignoring any obvious contradictions that you can plainly see, then you end up tying yourself up in philosophical knots, introducing mystery and long chains of dubious logic as you try to make one thing agree with another.
My advice is:- keep it simple. If the bible is the perfect word of god, then it doesn’t need complex interpretation.
When god is reported as doing something, then this is what he did. When god kills innocent children (such as the first born of every Egyptian), then this is a plain and simple act of slaughter of the innocents. Not an allegory.
And when God lays down the law, then that law is the unchanging, eternal moral principle.
When the bible says in Deuteronomy 23 “A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.” then it means just exactly what it says. It takes ten generations for the stain of sin to pass, and all those people affected are shunned and not allowed into gods church.
(Which means I am done for, by the way! My grandmother was born out of wedlock. Not her sin, of course, but that of her parents. But because of this sin by some people I never met, god has condemned my grandmother, my father, me, my brothers and sisters, my children, and my grandchildren. None of us wanted by god. None of us allowed into his congregation)
Well I go into the Bible with my frame of mind of no contradictions, because if I view it to be the word of God, there shouldn’t be contradictions. Thus far, out of the 12 videos I have done on the first 12 supposed bible contradictions, there was only 1 that I found to be an actual contradiction, somewhere about who killed Goliath or a brother, something around those parts. But I was able to figure a decent explanation for that one as well 😉
I agree, twisting it the scripture to mean what I want it to say would be just as bad as anyone else, hence why I said I may be adding to this text here with the glowing thing, but honestly i don’t feel I am as I said, there’s other scripture that helps support said claim.
The not lying however is not an interpretation of the text. As suggested as evidence by Rayan, and posted in the rebuttal video above, Numbers 23:19 1 Samuel 15:29 2 Samuel 7:28 Psalm 119:160 Hebrews 6:18, all make reference that God can not lie. So either he did, and all these other verses are wrong, or he didn’t and we are left to figure out what happened. I guess the point I am trying to make here is, going into the scripture with the frame of mind, it is written by man thus is a depiction of how they figured God should be, vs inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16) and thus if there’s several verses that say God can not lie, then there should be no verses that he has. And thus, a spiritual death makes sense. As you noted, it was because they would know good and evil. Well maybe that is a spiritual death, to know good and evil. Either way, I don’t trust talking snakes 😛
The way you are describing the text however, seems to fit in line more with the Sumerian creation tablets, that makes God more of just some being from another world, Enki (who actually is Satan himself, but that is a whole nother topic 😉 and as far as lower case g gods I am particular to psalm 82 I believe it was. That usually doesn’t sit well with other Christian types. Like wait what, there’s more then 1 god? Its a whole study on what elohim is, or spiritual beings, and the likes. Getting off topic here my bad.
Good news though for you, and I don’t see why people don’t grasp this one so quickly or easily, but all that Deuteronomy stuff, ya has nothing to do with anyone around today. The Old Testament laws were specific rules, for a specific people for a specific reason. God was building himself a nation of people (at least from the narrative) calling them out of the rest of the world, laid down some tough laws, all pointing us towards the coming messiah, which would be the new covenant.
I don’t disagree that God killed the first born of all those children, and life-stalk if I remember, nor do I try to say wait how can a loving God do that, that’s just mean. If scripture said he did, I say he did it 😛 However when people often times bring up genocide in the bible, like having the Israelite go out and kill entire civilizations and call that genocide, I think they miss the part where that only involved killing the giants.
So honestly, I do keep it simple. I take the text at its word. But like I said, if there looks like there’s a contradiction, there must be an answer why. Spiritual death, makes sense to me. Even though it doesn’t exactly spell it out in Genesis, it does with the other texts I had showed. Besides, my view isn’t so much God can’t lie, even though the scriptures say he can’t. I figure he can, he chooses not to. But that would be simply my opinion and not that of the scriptures. See, I have my own opinions too 😉
But ya, we are not under the old law, covered that one in the circumcision contradiction video. Check it out sometime 😉
I’m afraid you can’t wriggle out of it that easy.
You dismiss the Old Testament as “all that Deuteronomy stuff”, but – if the god of the old testament is the same god you pray to – then the law of the old testament is God’s eternal and unchanging law.
Unless Jesus overturned all those Old Testament rules and laws.
Well, no – in fact the opposite, Jesus said that his teachings did not change one jot or tittle of the law. Jesus explicitly said that his purpose was to reinforced the laws of the Old Testament.
Paul came along a few years after Jesus died and disagreed with him and told his followers something different, of course. But who are you going to believe – Paul or Jesus?
If you believe Paul, then fine, ditch the old testament. But don’t pick out the bits you like. Ditch the ten commandments, and all the other laws and stories.
But if you do that, you must acknowledge you are worshipping a different god with different teachings to the one Jesus worshipped.
Actually I believe I did a video on this one already 😉 But I’ll give a quick re-jot. The 10 commandments are also known as the Law, so is the Mosaic Law, so when Jesus said to follow the Law, and the Greek word used for the text unfortunately is the same, so yes I can see how there is easily a confusion and or debate on this topic. But I’d summarize it this way.
When a rich man asked Jesus what he needed to do for eternal life, Jesus didn’t tell him make sure your wife sleeps outside while shes on her period (mosaic law) no he quoted the 10 commandments law. The 10 commandments are still in effect today, the Mosaic law, that of Deuteronomy are not. The sacrifice of Jesus was the last sin sacrifice, at least if you are a Christian, that is to say, if you are a person who doesn’t accept Jesus (often referred to as a Jew) or a Messianic Jew, or your a black American who believes you are the lost tribe of Israel (not saying they aren’t actually seen some pretty compelling evidence they may be) but again, wanting to prop up the Mosaic Law for whatever reason, especially those who simply say Jesus did away with the Sin animal sacrifices, would be adding to or taking away from the Mosaic Law, and thus you can’t do that.
No, Jeremiah 31:31-33 makes it quite clear there comes a day (the time of Jesus- the Messiah) when the Mosaic Law would be done away with. What I mean by that is 2 Timothy 3:16, all scripture is good, and profitable for reproof and doctrine and the likes, so we are to look back to the Old Testament Mosaic Laws for guidance, but by no means are we under them.
No sure why anyone would want to place themselves back under that law anyhow as there’s plenty of scripture that shows no flesh will be justified by the law (Mosaic Law). But again, Jesus did say, as you quoted, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law (10 Commandments) until all things be fulfilled.
I follow Jesus, so did Paul, and so did the other Apostles. The problem is that, and Peter said it best in 2 Peter 3:16, that people misunderstand Paul’s letters twisting what they say and turning the Grace of God into lasciviousness.
I worship the Heavenly Father, YHVH, in the name of my Lord and Savior Yeshua Hamashiach, Jesus Christ, who is the word of God manifest in flesh. The bible is very consistent from front to cover, least in my cannon, the KJV. That Catholic Bible or the silly Septuagint, I can not vouch for.
Again for further clarification, Jesus said I didn’t come to abolish the Law (Mosaic Law) or the prophets, but to fulfill them. Everything in the Old Testament was pointing towards Jesus, who would bring an end to the Law of Moses, and bring us one step closer into Gods temple, where we now have access to the Holy of Holy, the Kingdom of God is at hand, this means Gods Grace. Gods Grace gives a believer power to overcome his sins. We are now under the Law of Christ. He said keep his commandments.
I hope that clarify my statement, or at least current understanding of the Mosaic Law. It is done away with in the since, we don’t use it for justification, its not something we have to follow, it is however good and righteous and should be used as an indicator of right and wrong.
So yes, Homosexuality for an instance, according to the Old Testament, and a few verses from the New, show how it is a Sin. The difference is, I am not an Old Testament Israelite, I am an Israelite/Jew spiritually grafted in by faith unto Abraham’s seed, and under the commandment of Christ is to Love my neighbor, even if he is a sinner (homosexual) I just am to warn him that as a sinner, that they will perish in their sins. Now that person with their free will can go ahead and disregard said warning, think my belief is rubbish and continue with his life, or he can recognize it as the sovereign word of the Lord and repent of his sins. But by no means is a modern day Christian, suppose to use the Old Testament Law, and kill anyone, meet evil with evil, railings with railings, as we are not under said law. 🙂
I guess a short version is, Jesus didn’t overturn the Laws of Moses, he fulfilled them so that we don’t have to follow them, but that Law is now written on our hearts (to a degree, its really the moral law and not the 613 commandments of Moses), the right and wrong, and Gods Grace, by the sacrifice of Christ, allows for us to obey said law, if we choose to.
So, to summarise. You are proposing that the Greek word for “The Law” is different to same Greek word for “The Law”.
Yes, I can see why some people might find that confusing!
This bible can be a difficult book to interpret, can’t it? I am so grateful for your advice on this.
So, you tell me I can ignore bits of the Old Testament (I shouldn’t stone my neighbours wife for sleeping with another man, for example) but I mustn’t ignore the ten commandments which still apply.
Which ten commandments, by the way? When I read Exodus I counted 14. (Try it for yourself – its definitely more than ten!)
Maybe it’s the ten the Catholics follow? Or the (different) ten followed by Protestants? Or the (different) ten written down by god onto the tablets of stone and given to Moses to be carried round in the Ark of the Covenant? – of which number 10 on the list is (something like) “don’t boil goat meat in milk”. (Again, check Exodus. The ten commandments written on stone are not the same ones as the ten to fourteen commandments at the start of the book. I’m guessing the ones god wrote in stone are the more important ones)
I have to say that the bible leaves a great deal of room for misinterpretation. Lots of people seem to be very definite about it, but they seem to disagree with each other. Lots of debate. Lots of room for contradiction and misunderstanding. Lots of personal interpretation. Lots of experts disagreeing completely with each other. And people like yourself taking a great deal of time to explain and yet somehow making things even more complicated and difficult to follow.
Was Jesus the Messiah? The Jews don’t think so and they are god’s chosen people. Was he the Son of God? The Muslims don’t think so. Did he overturn Mosaic Law? The lost tribes of Israel don’t think so (whoever they are). Not to mention Unitarians, Mormons, Greek Orthodox, Coptics and the like.
It’s really hard to get a clear answer on all of this, isn’t it?
Do you believe that the bible is the inspired word of god?
Do you believe that there is an afterlife? That there is a Heaven (and possibly a Hell)?
Do you believe that the fate of your immortal soul hangs in the balance and depends on you obeying God’s will as described in his holy book?
The problem is that God seems to be such an astonishingly bad communicator about a subject that is of such great importance to us all.
It’s almost as if god wants millions of people to spend all of eternity being burned in a lake of fire while demons poke tridents up their bottom, just because they got his book wrong.
It’s not as if it’s just a made up story with no coherent sense or meaning…
Oh. Wait. That’s it isn’t it?
I am glad to hear your gratefulness of my interpretations and clarifications, but I can’t help but feel the hint of sarcasm in said text >___<
For whatever reason I am only showing it posting the first sentence, so re-posting again
I am glad to hear your gratefulness of my interpretations and clarifications, but I can’t help but feel the hint of sarcasm in said text >___<
Maybe its to big? Try posting it broken up, minus the first sentence since that clearly posted
So I want to tackle this Law thing real quick. As you had made mention of 14 commandments. I had to go back and actually count to make sure 😛 And then researched to find out why that argument is even made. It is 10 commandments, and scripture interprets scripture. There are in fact some 600 ish or 613 Commandments of the Mosaic Law, and there are 10, only 10 commandments that were the ones on stone, and scripture makes it more then clear what they are. If Exodus 20 is to complicated for you, read Deuteronomy 5:6-21 for better clarification on what the 10 are.
Likewise the clear difference between the two laws can be seen as such, There difference between the 10 Commandments and Mosaic Law are as follows, one is written by Moses in a book 2 CHRON. 35:12 vs Written by God on stone EXO. 31:18. The Mosaic law was placed in the side of the ark DEUT. 31:26 vs Commandments Placed inside the ark EXO. 40:20, Mosaic law was Contrary to us, against us COL. 2:14 vs Gods laws are Not grievous 1 JOHN 5:3.
Galatians 3:19 tells us the end of the mosaic law is tied into the coming of the seed. The seed is a reference to the Messiah Yeshua, or Jesus Christ. Also, the translation of the word for ever can also be a bit confusing, as people read the English translation like the Law of Moses was to be for ever, but in Hebrew the word is Olam, and doesn’t mean forever in the English since of eternity, but rather simply means long duration, antiquity, futurity. The Law of Moses is finished.
By finished I mean, we don’t uphold the Mosaic Law for righteousness, now it is still to be used for reference of moral purpose. However the Bible also teaches us to obey the laws of our land, and the governing authorities, so long as the Laws don’t contradict Gods Laws. Last I check, if I stone my neighbors wife for sleeping with another man, I’d go to prison. So no, I don’t follow that one. The 10 Commandments are more of moral law to being with, don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t lie, I mean seriously how hard is it to keep the 10 commandments? Obviously its the first 4 most people have problems with 😛
You had asked me to list the 10 Commandments, Exodus 20:1-17 are the 10, that stuff about not putting your junk on the alter are not the commandments in stone, but more Mosaic Law.
As far as the 10 the Catholics follow, they are not the 10 of the Bible as Catholics aren’t Christians. They are a mix of Christianity and Pagan Semiramis and Tammuz Sun worship, along with their Protestant branches that came out of that Whore of Babylon. Again, religion is bad, God is good 🙂
On the note of the Bible leaving a great deal of room for misinterpretation, I would say the Bible is crystal clear actually. I don’t see why there are so many denominations and factions and cults surrounding it. There really isn’t any debate, only religious twisting of scriptures and lies continually told by man. I am sad to hear you say I make it even more complicated and difficult to follow however, as I thought I do a decent enough job explaining it. The Bible isn’t hard to understand, its hard to swallow. >_< Peeps just disagree with what it says mostly.
Hmmm… I’m not sure what’s going on. Maybe WordPress is having technical issues. Sorry for the issues.
Not a problem. Pretty sure has more to do with my over extrovertedness. Though God is good. As Brian and I have been going back and forth on the meaning of the Law, I just began work on Contradictions #13, which turns out to be, yet another topic on the Law.
Rayan, I thought you were finished with the contradictions. #56? Now I am going to have an unbalanced number in my volumes hehe. Were going to be 11 in each. Oh well, 11,11,11,11,12 sounds fine. Once i’ve researched them all that is.
Again I thank you for you Bible Contradictions. I have learned so much from them. If it weren’t for #7, I may yet have been a Messianic Jew.
I thought I was done too, but one day I really wanted to write a blog post. Most of my recent ones borrow from my field of study, but because it’s summer I’m sort of divorced from my field. So I wrote one more. Don’t worry: 1) it won’t be a common thing, and 2) it should give you more to think/talk about.
Hey there we go, ok 2nd half….man I need to learn to summarize my thoughts o.O
Was Jesus the Messiah? Yes he was. The Jews lied, saying he was the bastard son of a roman solider named Pantera. And now there are those who are they synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews but do lie. Was he the Son of God? Well the Greek is monogenes which really means unique. He wasn’t so much as the physical son of God, as the Word of God manifested in flesh. John 1:1-14/ 2 Timothy 3:16 and so forth. Muslims don’t seem to think anything out of the Bible is correct, that’s why they rewrote it and called it the Quran. They like upholding that old law junk and decapitating people who disagree. Again the Israelites weren’t ever told to do this, at least from my understanding. The only genocide there is that of the Giants. The lost tribes of Israel actually did think he was the Messiah. They made up the beginning factions of Christianity. Jews who believed and spread the word to the Gentiles. Then the Gentiles got all angry like and smashed their temple and killed millions of them. Word still got out 🙂 Unitards, Mormons, Orthodox anything and so on are all religious groups with their own organizations and own doctrines and own people to please. Who cares what they all think, I only debate the bible, not their theologians 😉
It is not hard to get a clear on all this, its crystal clear, least when I study it is.
2 Timothy 3:16-17, I very much believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Before my conversion a year ago I was an Agnostic who believed in evolution, the big bang, 14 billion years old. I am not a young earth creationist, so ya, I believe its the word of God.
I know there is an afterlife. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t waste my time debating with folks who don’t. As far as Heaven and Hell, that is to be better defined. Heaven (spiritual place in which God the father presides) is not a place any soul of man ever goes to. We die and as Ecclesiastics 9:5 says, we sleep in Hell, Hades, Sheol, whatever you want to call it, until one of the two resurrections, unto life when Christ returns (this is the point of the rapture, no separate event, one and the same) rule and reign for 1000 years, and then 2nd resurrection unto death where peeps found unjust, are cast into the Lake of Fire. Unless I am wrong, this is what the Bible teaches, I’m still reading it over and over again, so still learning 😉 In short, we all go to hell 😛
As for the question about the soul, it isn’t immortal. The spirit is. God breathed life (spirit) into a lifeless body of Atoms of this psychical world, the dirt of the earth (flesh) and man became a living soul (which in the Greek is psyche, or basically our mind) This is why Jesus said fear him who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. From what I gather, our spirit would be the eternal component and thus would return to the father of spirits (energy) However our memories, personality, emotions and the likes, can be destroyed in the lake of fire. So do I believe that will happen to my soul if I disobey God, you bet I do. Book says sin not, so that’s what I am attempting to do. Says love your neighbor, even if hes a d-bag, so that’s what I try to do. Says love your God, so that’s why I argue with you 😛
In what way has God stuttered in his word? I don’t think hes been a bad communicator, I think man has done a horrible job representing the scriptures for thousands of years. Religion and the lower case g-god of this world keep getting in the way.
And finally, can you give me chapter and verse where any demon ever pokes anything up the bottom of anyone in the lake of fire? Pretty sure that’s Catholic gibberish, propagated by our tel-lie-vision programming.
Again, whats not so cohearent about it? Seems pretty straight forward to me, just everyone wants to disagree with it ;P
Take it easy for now man. Hey, maybe hit up my youtube channel and check out my sermons. Get a better representation of what Christianity actually is o.O I just posted a 4 1/2 hour video covering this topic. Its really 4 smaller videos under one roof but meh, easier viewing. If nothing else, get some good cannon fire for those religious institutions. Darn Catholics, giving me such a bad name >_<
Yes, sorry about the sarcasm. I couldn’t resist! I’ll try and keep a lid on it for this one.
You say “there are 10, only 10 commandments that were the ones on stone”. And on this we completely agree. But what you didn’t confirm was that the ten God thought were SO important they had to be committed to stone are NOT the well known ten commandments.
The ones written in stone were carried around in the ark of the Covenant. (1 Kings 8:9)
If your theory that “The Law” Jesus referred to is the Ten Commandments ONLY, and not the hundreds of other commandments in the old testament, then by your own reasoning, Jesus must have meant all of mankind to obey these very important ten laws of god –
Read Exodus 34:14-28 for the full list, but they include:
– Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
– Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest; in plowing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
– and (my favourite) Thou shalt not boil a kid in his mother’s milk.
But let’s suppose I am wrong and I have misinterpreted what the bible seems (to me) to state very clearly.
I am concerned with your statement “The 10 Commandments are more of moral law to being with, don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t lie, I mean seriously how hard is it to keep the 10 commandments?”
Well, some of them I think are pretty immoral.
1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me
I am really not happy with this first one and find it quite repugnant. I don’t want to live in a world where a single religious view is imposed on the whole of humanity. Do you really want to impose your religious views on every Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Atheist? Not morally acceptable
2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
No Art? No images of any kind? Terrible.
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
…why? Is god so weak and insecure? (Oh, yes he is! He even says his name is Jealous and gets very very angry with anyone who worships another god (ordering the Benjaminites to slaughter their brothers who built a golden calf under Aaron’s instructions)
4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Regular breaks are good, but not imposed one day in seven to meet a centrally imposed religious view.
5 Honour thy father and thy mother
Well, that depends. My Mum and Dad were great people and I honour them and their memory. But my wife’s father is a monster. It would be highly immoral to honour him.
6 Thou shalt not kill
Finally. A bit low down on the list, but yes – I agree this is a moral law. Of course every society and every set of laws ever written, including all those that pre-date the Jews by many centuries have always had murder as a bad thing. So not original or surprising. But it’s a shame that God encouraged his people to break this law so, so often
7 Thou shalt not commit adultery
Yep. Can agree with this. If you make a promise you should keep to it. If you can’t, get divorced first.
8 Thou shalt not steal
Yep. No problem here.
9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Sound OK at first glance, but it misses the mark a bit, doesn’t it? You paraphrased it as “Don’t Lie” but that isn’t what it says. I would be happier with “Thou shalt not lie”. Its OK….Except, why just ‘your neighbour’? Does this mean that it is OK to bear false witness against a foreigner or a stranger?
10 Thou shalt not covet your neighbour’s house, your neighbour’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.
Wow. In order of importance, your neighbours house comes before Wife. Typical of the bible which can be misogynist. But is it morally right to say that we shouldn’t have ambitions? If I like my neighbours car and decide I want to work hard, save my wages and eventually buy one just like it, that is breaking a commandment. Really?
And what about saying something about “Thou shalt not own slaves”, Thou shalt not commit rape”, “Thou shalt not beat or humiliate children”, “Thou shalt not commit torture” These would be far better moral laws than the first four of the ten commandments.
My big concern for you here is where you said “we are to look back to the Old Testament Mosaic Laws for guidance”
So when God commanded the Benjaminites to slay all of their brothers for worshipping a golden calf, you think that genocide for religious purposes teaches us an important moral lesson? That it is right to commit genocide against anyone who has a different interpretation of god? In which case Islamic Terrorists are listening very carefully to these moral lessons!
Or maybe we should take note of the moral lesson whereby the sins of the father are visited upon the children for up to four generations. Do you really think that is just?
Or where God says that you cannot approach the alter of the Lord if you are disabled?
These are NOT moral teachings.
Hehe, I don’t mind the sarcasm, though through text can be confusing. Bantering always makes debating more enjoyable, least to me it does. But to clarify, the 10 Commandments I think are a basis of Moral Law and are not all that there is to morality. That and I believe this is the term that has been given to them and is not my or a biblical name for it, thought I could be wrong. But the Idea is that most lump the two laws into one law, and I try to show how there is a distention between the two. I just posted a video for Bible Contradictions 13 that has a snap show that shows these differences further, but I am sure you already get the gist.
A part I wonder if you are aware of those is that Exodus 34:14-28 isn’t speaking of the 10 commandments, but doesn’t reiterate some. Unless we are saying the first 10 that fell and broke were replaced with the ones written of in Exodus 34, which I doubt because it made no mention of the change in Deuteronomy. But in case you were unaware, that whole kid in its mother milk thing, is a baby goat. Its not saying boil a child, like human child though the prince of the air has got us calling our children baby goats (kids) and can be confusing, otherwise, if you already know this distinction, why is it your favorite?
But as I had mentioned the 10 commandments are referred to as the moral law, this is to say, they were the law before they were put on stone, from my understanding have existed before creation and would exist after creation, and are basically the guide work to morality, again not an exhaustive list as you had mentioned several other obvious ones, thou shalt not rape, torture, own slaves, wait aren’t we all slaves currently? I mean debt slaves? Our master just treats us so nice we don’t even notice 😛
Any who, you had layed out a the 10 with response, I think I will follow suit, but just to say again, I had said in the post before, the 10 commandments as set for as a moral law aren’t really all that hard to keep, lying stealing murdering, and then said its the first 4 I think most disagree with :P.
1 Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Yes, I very much would love to share the Gospel with ever Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Atheist? I find this not only morally acceptable, but good. Its a sad thing for them to have fallen for lies and or ignore the truth that is the Gospel. But the beauty of it is, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, Atheist can continue on going being what they want as the God I believe in has created them with a free will. So if they want to ignore the Gospel message, that’s their choice. I agree however that as a religious organization should not enforce people to worship or believe in any religion or holy text, even the one I know to be true. That would be immoral.
2 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Now unless I am misinterpreting this one, I don’t think God has an issue with art 😛 I think this has to do more with the pagan religions of Old, and by Old I mean of Italy and by Italy I mean the Roman Catholic Church whose statues are so worshiped the kisses have worn off the toes. People be making images of Zeus from Heaven, or Posidean from the Sea or what not, and thus this commandment is saying don’t make images and bow down before them, for they are nothing but a statue. Now If I am wrong I better throw away my guitar and computer because ones carved from wood and the other is in the shape of a square o.O Pretty sure that’s not what he meant.
3 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Ya, hes a jealous God, wrathful one too. Saves a whole bunch of people from Egypt and then makes the earth swallow them up. Like whats the point in saving them in the first place. He said, I think I heard someone say dag nabit! Besides, its just disrespectful.
4 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. The Pharisee built all kinds of extra rules around this day, and sure there is that instance were a guy was stoned for gathering wood on the Sabbath, but I think the idea here is, allow the spirit soul and flesh some rest. Not necessarily so they can go to Church on Sunday, again that’s a Catholic thing, in fact its their mark of authority.
5 Honour thy father and thy mother
The Hebrew word here for Honour is 3513. kabad or kabed and is defined to be heavy, weighty, or burdensome. I think the idea here is that as your parents grow old, you as their Child should take care of them. Now, if your parents didn’t take care of you growing up, or as you had said your wife’s father was a monster, I can’t see how I could take care of someone, though Christianity does teach to forgive, but not if they are still a monster. So still a monster, I’d say no, not a monster and has changed their ways, I’d open my door to my pops even if he was an A-hole. But ya, this one isn’t saying do everything they say because their mommy and daddy, its saying take care of your parents as they age. Again, least from my understanding.
6 Thou shalt not kill/ to murder, 7523. ratsach manslayer, to murder, slay
I agree killing for almost any reasons is wrong. But I think the idea behind this one is pre meditated murder. Now its not saying if your part of the military and that’s your job, or if God has commanded Genocide of a civilization of Giants, this one is more like, don’t plan to kill someone, and then go do it, or even out of fits of Jealousy or rage.
7 Thou shalt not commit adultery
Gods big on marriage, he doesn’t like divorce 😛
8 Thou shalt not steal
Ah come on, what if your really hungry? Ya, stealing bad
9 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Well in this case it actually is saying against your friend, fellow or companion. But if that is the same as neighbour, the question might become well what about my neighbors neighbour. How far must one list before I can lie to them. I think the point here is that peeps lived in smaller communities back then. I guess you could take it at face value and say well, it does say neighbour so I guess it is fine to lie to a stranger. lying is fine in the eyes of God, so long as its to someone you don’t know. o.O Pretty sure were just not suppose to lie in General, that’s what I go with,
10 Thou shalt not covet
For this one, no I think people twist that one up a bit as well. As you said, your neighbor has a nice car, you say hmm, I’d like a nice car, you work hard and get one, that’s not coveting. Sitting around saying I wish I had what he has is, that is the sin. Gods not against ambitions, least I don’t think he is. Likewise, you made mention of things in order, I don’t remember reading that these were in order of importance or that their subsets, house before wife was a level of importance. Maybe its just how it was written down?
To close, what I mean by taking moral lessons, or we are to use simply as guidance from the old testament, I’ll use your examples. It says the situation with the benjimites, shows me a level of seriousness God has with that Idol business, Ok, I shouldn’t build a statue, especially of a cow and bow down to it *cough* hindus *cough* The said genocide to follow would go against to many other commandments laid down by God, don’t kill, follow the laws of your land, love your neighbor, such and such. Again that was God telling a specific group to kill for a specific reason, and we may disagree with it, but its not a blanket statement, if people worship other gods kill them. No, God used situations like that to make examples that are then recorded. Yet peeps like Muslims will use this same thinking as yours and do, well like you said, mass genocide, namely to Christians.
Thanks for the chat. I think its about time to lay the keyboard to rest (which is so much less poetic than putting a pen down)
I’ve enjoyed it – and learned a thing or two.
Just so you know, I always realised that kid was a baby goat. The reason why I like it? If god is going to carve his eternal rules in stone, the bit about boiling goat in its mothers milk seems a bit surreal and (frankly) a waste of good stone tablet!
I think if I could leave you with one thought, it would be to recap on what I said earlier and the start of this conversation.
The bible is not clear or easy to understand. You said that you thought it was clear and couldn’t understand how so many other people disagreed with you and understood it differently. Now, I do understand that you were not saying that you are the only person to have ever understood it, but the very fact that many clever people throughout the past two millenia have attempted to explain it (and, I know you don’t like Catholics, but you have to throw them into the mix too).
Why don’t they agree? Because the bible is poorly written, vague, contradictory. If it is the word of god (and I am very very sure it isn’t) then god is a very poor communicator indeed. And repetitive (I mean, just try read the bit in Exodus where god describes how to build the ark of the covenant – from the first words on its design to the final words regarding the completion of its construction. I bet you have never sat down and read it all the way through without your mind wandering onto other things. It is so dull, dull, dull.)
But fair play. You stuck to your guns. When trying to find an explanation for the disconnect between “God Never Lies” and god telling Adam he would die if he ate a piece of fruit, your response was surprising – that Adam must have died somehow!
Have fun trying to connect the unconnectable dots.
Peace and Love
Ya, I have fun debating. Before when I was Agnostic, and still after conversion. I think it is healthy. Again, so long as either party doesn’t kill the other one for disagreeing. From my point of view we are created with a free will and should be able to express that. If my point of view tells me that I am right, and the word of God says to warn people of their sin and the consequence of staying in said sin, no harm really. Might offend a few people but that’s fine.
Final notes, the goat comment, absolutely agree, if it was one of the 10, but its not 😛 Putting down the keyboard is poetic in my opinion haha
And as far as people not agreeing on what the Bible says, I still say that it has nothing to do more then people having speicfic agendas. Religious organizations, no matter the movement, denomination, faction or cult, all hold to their variation of scripture based on doctrines of writings from people who wrote about it, for the most part. The words of the Bible haven’t changed, and that is why I stand by the protestant movements sola scriptura. It really sets a finality, as there really isn’t any confusion in the scripture.
Now granted, there are some parts that may seem like contradictions, and I will continue to look over them and see if I can find an alternative answer. Least for the first 13, I feel I have addressed them with a decent enough answer that I feel at least comfortable (and even some other agnostic and or atheists have written me saying it has shown them that it was indeed not a contradiction, of course others who have called me a moron, give up, jack wagon and the likes:P ) that they are not a contradiction after all. However there has been a few from a debate I was having recently that a guy showed me, namly the census that David took, and the contradiction between 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles, where in one its God who commanded the census, in another its Satan. In one its like 800,000 soldiers, another like 1.3 million and so forth. Like that section alone has several contradictions. As I said to him, if after studying any supposed contradiction if I fail to be able to give a just account, a reasonable explanation, I would definitively admit to the fact it is there. For example in the Lahimi who killed Goliath one. Though again I feel that contradiction was fairly well explained by a copies error.
I have read Exodus through and through believer it or not, and I agree, it is got to be one of the most dull, or repetitive writings ever. So bloody descriptive, but hey, God wanted that tent perfect I guess haha. Either way, I do read the Bible, I have read the whole new testament and most of the Old, still working my way through it, almost finished, but its so much information, so repetitive at times, dull in others that I don’t have it all memorized, so when it comes to a contradiction, I sit down and study that topic thoroughly then I make the video.
Though you may disagree with my answer I give for an account on said supposed contradiction, I hope you look forward to my future rebuttals. Take it easy man. Peace indeed.
“Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 KJV
This is referring to the end times. You reject truth. The lie is atheism. You lose. Irony as it’s finest y’all.
So God’s response to his creation not believing in him is to send them even stronger delusions so that they can be 100% guaranteed to go to hell? I agree that is pretty ironic. I thought God was supposed to be a good guy
he is the god of love and justice he wont spoil your sins, he will judge you someday
lets wait , rupture day will come, regrets are always at the last part of time, see yah
WRONG HE DOES NOT THE BIBLE HAS CHANGED OVER THE YEARS DON’T BELIEVE!!! LOOK AT AVAILABLE HISTORY!!! HELL WAS FIRST, CONDEMNED 1750!!! SO EACH TIME THAT FIGURE IS SPOKE OF, JUST REMINDS CREATOR THAT BELIEVERS HAVE BEEN LEAD BY FALSE PROFITS!!!